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T20 World Cup Options
Benjiman
#41 Posted : Sunday, May 16, 2010 11:00:51 PM
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Davo1 wrote:
And before the snidy comments come in about KP, Lumb, Kieswetter and Morgan - they qualified as per the ICC rules. Same as Owen Hargreaves in football, Mike Catt in Rugby and, thinking about it, Steve Smith who was playing for Oz today.


Awww! I was looking forward to 'my well done Saffers' comment.BigGrin

It was hugely convincing though, never in doubt from very early on.
nathan8
#42 Posted : Monday, May 17, 2010 8:50:31 AM
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I've had a quick look at our stats. Kieswetter, Lumb, KP and Morgan between them scored 790 runs during the tournament. The other 8 players used during the tournament scored 218 runs!! Having said that, and in the fairness of balance, those 4 saw more time in the middle than the others with the exception of Collingwood, and on the wickets front it was 36-0 in favour of the English players.

I take your point Davo, and I have no idea on the background of the Saffers, so it may well be they've been here since they were in nappies (obviously KP wasn't), but I did find myself hoping that it would be Collingwood who hit the winning runs.

On the Hargreaves point though Dave, if football rules were applied to cricket, Morgan would not be allowed to play for us having already represented Ireland. I realise similar things happen in other sports (there have been a few rugby players who've represented teams like the Somoas and then switched to NZ), but it does seem strange that you can pick and switch your country.

Having said all that, great to see us win. Unlucky to lose to WI in the first game, then Ireland was probably our only dodgy performance of the tournament. After that, we played well in all areas. Also good to see that KP seems to have have returned to form, and finally learnt how to play T20.
Only BCFA team to beat BSXI 4 times since 12th December 2009.....
nathan8
#43 Posted : Monday, May 17, 2010 8:54:20 AM
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Oh and Dan, well done for beating me in the fantasy game. Even though I messed up the second semi and was left with 5 subs at the end, I think you'd still have beaten me by over 100 points. Sad
Only BCFA team to beat BSXI 4 times since 12th December 2009.....
Benjiman
#44 Posted : Monday, May 17, 2010 9:01:52 AM
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nathan8 wrote:

I take your point Davo, and I have no idea on the background of the Saffers, so it may well be they've been here since they were in nappies (obviously KP wasn't), but I did find myself hoping that it would be Collingwood who hit the winning runs.



Kieswetter has a Scottish mother and lived in SA till his teens, but that is all I know about his background.

Eakes
#45 Posted : Monday, May 17, 2010 12:22:11 PM
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Nath, your comment about Morgan not playing for us if we used football rules is not quite as straight forward. Cricket, not being as widely spread as football (despite being a better game Wink ) means they have the lesser countries without full status. If you play for one of those associated teams then it doesn't preclude you playing for a country with full test status. So if Morgan had played for New Zealand he couldn't then have qualified for England. Other sports like rugby league have these rules also.

And Davo, where did you get that info about Steve Smith? I can't find anything other than things that tell me he is a bona fide Aussie. He even looks like a surf bum so surely must be an Aussie through and through?

Kieswetter came to England as an 18 year old.
Lumb's father is a Yorkshireman and returned back to England when he was around 20 (about 10 years ago) and has been here since.

I have no problem with them turning out for England, they have shown just as much pride and passion playing for England as anyone deemed to be more "English".

Lets not forget that Dan is from South Bristol, not an area known for its appreciation of ethnic diversity !!
nathan8
#46 Posted : Monday, May 17, 2010 12:25:50 PM
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Eakes wrote:
Nath, your comment about Morgan not playing for us if we used football rules is not quite as straight forward. Cricket, not being as widely spread as football (despite being a better game Wink ) means they have the lesser countries without full status. If you play for one of those associated teams then it doesn't preclude you playing for a country with full test status. So if Morgan had played for New Zealand he couldn't then have qualified for England. Other sports like rugby league have these rules also.


Ok, fair point. Hadn't considered that.
Only BCFA team to beat BSXI 4 times since 12th December 2009.....
Benjiman
#47 Posted : Monday, May 17, 2010 12:25:56 PM
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Eakes wrote:

I have no problem with them turning out for England, they have shown just as much pride and passion playing for England as anyone deemed to be more "English".



I don't either if it is the odd one or two, but when it is half the team it takes some of the gloss off the achievement.
RingofFire
#48 Posted : Monday, May 17, 2010 12:44:25 PM
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Dirk Nannes has played for Holland.

I don't care 'cos we're world champions and it's not like we have broken any rules, but I just don't get how you can be born and live in a country until you are 18, live in England for 4 years, but because your Grandparents are Scottish, you qualify for England. Doesn't make sense but not breaking any rules.

World Champions Baby!
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Benjiman
#49 Posted : Tuesday, May 18, 2010 12:55:33 PM
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RingofFire wrote:
Dirk Nannes has played for Holland.

I don't care 'cos we're world champions and it's not like we have broken any rules, but I just don't get how you can be born and live in a country until you are 18, live in England for 4 years, but because your Grandparents are Scottish, you qualify for England. Doesn't make sense but not breaking any rules.

World Champions Baby!


The rules suck! Even more of a joke are the Kenyan runners who go and run for Qatar just for the money. Also Moses Kipketer, also Kenyan who then chose to run for Denmark just because he took a liking to the place when he went there on a student exchange. He then proceded to break Seb Coes world record taking the European record with it.Angry
Davo1
#50 Posted : Wednesday, May 19, 2010 1:03:59 PM
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Interesting to read all of the comments. I think that people sometimes take a simplistic view of the idea of nationality. My guess is that most fans don't have an issue with Lumb playing for England on account of the fact he has an English parent and on top of that his old man used to open for Yorkshire! He had a choice of two countries and chose us. Good for him.

Kieswetter is a more divisive subject: Yup, he played at U19 level for the Saffers but came to England a while ago and has had a British passport all his life (dual nationality via his Mum). Played for Somerset and did his A-Levels at Millfield. Millfield is arguably the most English place in the entire world!!! Dave McGrath wanted a job there but had no chance because he's Scottish. Seriously though, if he considers England to be his adopted country then why shouldn't he play for them? He'd have had a bloody good shot at getting into the SA side if he wanted to, as Boucher is already 167 years old and will be retiring soon. Ultimately, he made his choice and felt that he wanted to represent England. I welcome that and it isn't for me to second guess his eligibility or motivation for doing so.

KP's just ace! English mother, English wife, English tattoo! That'll do for me. Maybe I'm just easily pleased?
RingofFire
#51 Posted : Wednesday, May 19, 2010 8:33:31 PM
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Davo1 wrote:
Interesting to read all of the comments. I think that people sometimes take a simplistic view of the idea of nationality. My guess is that most fans don't have an issue with Lumb playing for England on account of the fact he has an English parent and on top of that his old man used to open for Yorkshire! He had a choice of two countries and chose us. Good for him.

Kieswetter is a more divisive subject: Yup, he played at U19 level for the Saffers but came to England a while ago and has had a British passport all his life (dual nationality via his Mum). Played for Somerset and did his A-Levels at Millfield. Millfield is arguably the most English place in the entire world!!! Dave McGrath wanted a job there but had no chance because he's Scottish. Seriously though, if he considers England to be his adopted country then why shouldn't he play for them? He'd have had a bloody good shot at getting into the SA side if he wanted to, as Boucher is already 167 years old and will be retiring soon. Ultimately, he made his choice and felt that he wanted to represent England. I welcome that and it isn't for me to second guess his eligibility or motivation for doing so.

KP's just ace! English mother, English wife, English tattoo! That'll do for me. Maybe I'm just easily pleased?


Came to England a while ago? 4 years ins't a 'while' IMO. And his Mum is Scottish so should make him eligible for Scotland.
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Benjiman
#52 Posted : Wednesday, May 19, 2010 9:41:00 PM
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In my opinion to play for England you should either have been born in England (or Wales) or have an English parent. As previously stated KP comes into that catagory although Kieswetter does not. Didn't Vinnie Jones get to play football for Wales because his Grandad was born there? A bit stupid if you ask me.
nathan8
#53 Posted : Thursday, May 20, 2010 8:29:43 AM
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Davo1 wrote:
My guess is that most fans don't have an issue with Lumb playing for England on account of the fact.......that his old man used to open for Yorkshire!


As one of their overseas players? Wink
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nathan8
#54 Posted : Thursday, May 20, 2010 8:30:34 AM
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Benjiman wrote:
In my opinion to play for England you should either have been born in England (or Wales) or have an English parent. As previously stated KP comes into that catagory although Kieswetter does not. Didn't Vinnie Jones get to play football for Wales because his Grandad was born there? A bit stupid if you ask me.


Dave seems to suggest that Kieswetter does have an English Mum??
Only BCFA team to beat BSXI 4 times since 12th December 2009.....
Eakes
#55 Posted : Thursday, May 20, 2010 8:31:39 AM
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Nath, if you knew your cricket you would know that up until the 90's Yorkshire never had anyone playing for them that was born outside of Yorkshire, let alone and overseas player!! Dan would have felt at home oop there.
RingofFire
#56 Posted : Thursday, May 20, 2010 8:55:22 AM
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nathan8 wrote:
Benjiman wrote:
In my opinion to play for England you should either have been born in England (or Wales) or have an English parent. As previously stated KP comes into that catagory although Kieswetter does not. Didn't Vinnie Jones get to play football for Wales because his Grandad was born there? A bit stupid if you ask me.


Dave seems to suggest that Kieswetter does have an English Mum??


She's Scottish according to Wiki.
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Eakes
#57 Posted : Thursday, May 20, 2010 10:19:23 AM
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Dan is correct, she is Scottish. But since we are winning, she is British.
Davo1
#58 Posted : Thursday, May 20, 2010 4:16:10 PM
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Benjiman wrote:
In my opinion to play for England you should either have been born in England (or Wales) or have an English parent. As previously stated KP comes into that catagory although Kieswetter does not. Didn't Vinnie Jones get to play football for Wales because his Grandad was born there? A bit stupid if you ask me.


These rules are the same across pretty much every sport (with minor differences) and have been for many years with the odd adaptation (consider the case of Basil D'Olivera in the 60s). There are good reasons for this, even more so today with the fact that people do change their nationality or citizenship and the fact that there is a huge amount more movement between countries and continents. By your reckoning, a kid that moves to England with his parents at a very young age should not be allowed to grow up dreaming of playing for the country where he has spent virtually all his life - I could name a few people that I've known for quite a few years that fall into that bracket (though obviously none of them are good enough to play for England in any sport) and would imagine that I'm not alone in that.

Ultimately, this is how the world - Britain especially - is these days. Shouldn't we just welcome people who choose to adopt our country? Or is it better to whinge at them and tell them to go home? Bear in mind that all of our cricketers have full time jobs in this country and did so before they were selected for England - bit unfair to expect them to give that up to represent a country they don't even live in.
nathan8
#59 Posted : Thursday, May 20, 2010 5:04:41 PM
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There probably isn't a good rule that would work without getting ridiculously complicated. So I take your point Dave, and will embrace our new English cricketing heroes.

Lacker!!
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Benjiman
#60 Posted : Thursday, May 20, 2010 5:09:54 PM
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nathan8 wrote:
There probably isn't a good rule that would work without getting ridiculously complicated. So I take your point Dave, and will embrace our new English cricketing heroes.

Lacker!!


Just like the D&L system!

Maybe they could add a rule that if you have lived in England from a certain age (Definitely under 18) and for a certain amount of time. You are eligable. I just want to stop further instances similar to that of the Kenyan athletes.


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